O/T - General Politics thread

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Re: O/T - General Politics thread

25 Nov 2021 12:41 pm:

https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

Worth a read. I am interested to know on what basis you call all these people tourists.

As the article states the only true way to determine that is through the official immigration processes. Much easier and cheaper to do that outside our borders.

The Dublin regulation ceased to apply to the UK on the 31st January 2020.
The frightening thing is not dying, the frightening thing is not living
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Re: O/T - General Politics thread

25 Nov 2021 13:05 pm:

31st Dec 2020 is when it ceased to apply to the UK.
France and all other EU member states (except Denmark) however..
Germany, Hungary and the Czech Republic have all invoked clauses to excuse themselves from the regulation at one time or another.

the first Member State where finger prints are stored or an asylum claim is lodged is responsible for a person's asylum claim


Perhaps these folk haven't met either of those criteria (as if by magic) before they attempt to cross?
Either way, it's pretty clear cut to me, the EU is failing them and wilfully letting them risk their lives and be exploited by traffickers. Inhumane, you could call it.
Hopefully, this text should be smaller and less prominent than the words above it...
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Re: O/T - General Politics thread

25 Nov 2021 13:24 pm:

The traffickers should be severely punished; however locating and identifying them is near impossible and British intelligence services have arguably bigger issues to contend with at the moment. The bulk of them are almost certainly based in the EU. Without proper cooperation with the intelligence and police in those countries we have a simple choice to make. Either we police the coast ourselves or we leave things as they are.

The current "hybrid" policing approach isn't working, BUT if it's scrapped then even more will be heading our way.

It's reckoned that 50 % are successful with the crossing as things stand . Will we be better off allowing more to get to British waters where the eyes of the World will be watching ?. This could lead to a 100 % success rate with crossings.

The French do seem somewhat ambivalent . Then again can you blame them ?. Pointing the finger at them and blaming them is not really going to change anything. They maybe working to orders and anyway who knows the real political crux of the deal with France ?. The Govt. want to be seen as being tough on illegal immigration but in reality they are following the policy of Canute . A 50 % ratio is IMO most likely what they have negotiated behind closed doors.
Last edited by RTS2 on 25 Nov 2021 13:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: O/T - General Politics thread

25 Nov 2021 13:27 pm:

So did the Dublin Agreement allow the UK to return some asylum seekers to a country within the EU where they first landed?
I remember the Nazi era posters during the Brexit referendum telling us that migration was out of control and we needed to “take back control of our borders”.
Did Brexit in fact remove a right to return such people and provide nothing to replace it?
If so, the Brexit voters have contributed to this current mess haven’t they?
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Re: O/T - General Politics thread

25 Nov 2021 13:37 pm:

lovejoy wrote:So did the Dublin Agreement allow the UK to return some asylum seekers to a country within the EU where they first landed?
I remember the Nazi era posters during the Brexit referendum telling us that migration was out of control and we needed to “take back control of our borders”.
Did Brexit in fact remove a right to return such people and provide nothing to replace it?
If so, the Brexit voters have contributed to this current mess haven’t they?


I think that nothing has changed since Brexit Lovejoy. A deal was almost certainly done to maintain an approximately 50% "turn a blind eye to the crossings". The numbers will IMO continue to rise sharply. 50,000 attempted crossing this year will possibly become 100,000 next year. It makes the Belarusian situation look farcical in terms of numbers and proves it is sometimes easier to block a land border than the coast.

It is a problem that will not go away. There has to be a structured acceptance of integration and immigration into the UK. The lunatic fringe of Brexiteers have the choice to emigrate . Having said that whatever immigration policy we have ( OK there has recently been new legislation )there will always be the movement inwards of illegal immigrants and those seeking asylum.

What we have to recognise is that the West exacerbates the situation in many countries where there is political tyranny but invariably doesn't want to take ownership of it's interference when it comes to accepting those seeking to get away from a problem it has been part of creating.
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Re: O/T - General Politics thread

25 Nov 2021 13:41 pm:

Because SH, as joint signature on the 1951 Geneva Convention we, along with France are more than happy to accept genuine refugees. The plain and simple fact is that the EU and France are safe countries and any refugees / migrants should be processed there. If you then decide to shop around once you are in a safe haven, fee from persicution, then you are a tourist.

The French government are quite correct as well about the 'grey' economy within the UK. It is far to easy to get a job (as I aluded too in a previous post) here. Fergie, my mate in Spain was only telling me the other day that he has been raided three times this year to check on employment and immigration status. His previous employer replaced Fergie with an immigrant and was fined 50,000 Euros by the Spanish immigration authorities. She now only employees documented Spanish workers. Lessons were learnt.

Many of these criminal gangs also operate businesses within the UK where these immigrants can 'work their passage' paying off the 5,000 Euro cost of a seat on the boat. Make the UK an undesired place to go, target the criminal gangs and spend money doing so. Throw the full resources of the state at the problem.

Or we allow safe passage for anyone and let them disappear. It's not as if any refugees have stabbed a soldier to death on the street of Woolwich, blown up children attending a pop concert or attempted a suicide bombing of remembrance Sunday is it?
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Re: O/T - General Politics thread

25 Nov 2021 13:53 pm:

lovejoy wrote:So did the Dublin Agreement allow the UK to return some asylum seekers to a country within the EU where they first landed?
I remember the Nazi era posters during the Brexit referendum telling us that migration was out of control and we needed to “take back control of our borders”.
Did Brexit in fact remove a right to return such people and provide nothing to replace it?
If so, the Brexit voters have contributed to this current mess haven’t they?


Not sure why you used question marks on your opinion Lovejoy? The Dublin convention states that "the first Member State where finger prints are stored or an asylum claim is lodged is responsible for a person's asylum claim". If the EU state on the southern border just watch the boats come ashore and know full well that they are off to the UK, why would they stop and finger print them? Wht havent the French Police finger printed all of the people around the calais area?

Riddle me that.
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Re: O/T - General Politics thread

25 Nov 2021 14:10 pm:

They probably do finger print half of them TC... ;)
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Re: O/T - General Politics thread

25 Nov 2021 14:11 pm:

Germany has allowed Nord S 2. We will also feed of it's politicsed tentacles. It's OK BJ spouting nonsence about the threat of Russia and security issues surrounding the importing of Russian gas through the Baltic. It's all cobblers. We will buy and use this gas whatever Biden has to say. It's all one big smoke screen with the same puppets playing to their masters. Same goes for Ukraine. The human misery caused in Dombas ( it's real I have seen it at first hand) was as much to do with Obama as it was to do with Putin. Crimea was a done deal with Putin to instigate a realignment within a region that we won't even allow to join NATO.

So; 2 million people live at or below the poverty line in a would-be progressive economy that is not allowed to join the EU or NATO but is good enough for us to give £10 billion to in unsecured loans that have no accountability whatsoever when in Ukraine and of which Zero £ will directly benefit those elderly and young people who are trapped within a war zone that we along with the EU and USA and NATO have allowed to happen. British military trainers are very active in the Ukraine but when and IF the sh**t does hit the fan who will be blamed when they have disappeared ?.

The misery being caused by Politicians in the East and West are as high as it has ever been. The same people are pulling the strings and it's always the most vulnerable who suffer.
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Re: O/T - General Politics thread

25 Nov 2021 14:27 pm:

tigerchef wrote:Because SH, as joint signature on the 1951 Geneva Convention we, along with France are more than happy to accept genuine refugees. The plain and simple fact is that the EU and France are safe countries and any refugees / migrants should be processed there. If you then decide to shop around once you are in a safe haven, fee from persicution, then you are a tourist.

There are other factors. Of course the first need is safety, but put yourself in the position of an asylum seeker. You may have releatives or friends in the UK which will enable an easier transition and allow you contribute to the economy. English being a more common language than French, German etc may also contribute to wanting to gain asylum in the UK. I think saying that an asylum seeker should stop at the first safe country is a bit simplistic, it also means that we would avoid taking our fair share purely through geographic location.

I don' t have an answer and this is a complex issue but it does require nations to work together. We need to take our fair share and France needs to better police its ports to prevent tragedies like this happening.
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