COVID- 19

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Re: COVID- 19

25 Jan 2021 11:09 am:

Good article DT. I was watching some US news last night and they had someone from the CDC explaining that the USA are going for a 6 week gap.

Obviously all of this is relevant for the Pfizer vaccine.

I suspect the Oxford vaccine represents the overwhelming majority of the UK programme at the moment.
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Re: COVID- 19

25 Jan 2021 11:18 am:

Bod wrote:If someone has Covid do they automatically produce anti-bodies?


Bod, my wife tested positive back in April, she was asymptomatic, she had a follow up antibody test but didn't have any! I think that if you are asymptomatic or have a very mild dose you won't produce antibodies.
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Re: COVID- 19

25 Jan 2021 11:23 am:

Steckers you raise a few good points that we have partially discussed already .

1). The tests are available privately in abundance. Agree to roll them out en mass would be a significant operation and Israel of course has a much smaller population than the UK. Having said this; if there was significant research and evidence that having the vaccination when carrying the antibodies was not advisable for medical reasons ( which has not been proved ) then testing prior to the vaccination would have to be done and a roll out of the antibody testing kits would have to be factored in. OK; that is not the case; but the capacity to manufacture these tests in the millions is entirely possible.


2) The tests are very simple and quick. usually results are available within 15 minutes. They take less than 2 minute to do. Whilst every minute is precious right now ; it could bring forward the testing of and vaccination of someone else who doesn't carry the antibodies by days or maybe weeks.
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Re: COVID- 19

25 Jan 2021 11:24 am:

I for one would forgo my own vaccination to a later date if I had antibodies to allow others without any immunity at all, to have theirs before me . I am sure many others would be willing to do the same.

In medical training terms, it requires significantly less training to do a test than to give a vaccination. So yes; to answer the crux of your question those giving the vaccination could do the testing or an additional number of volunteers could be recruited. Again I am sure there are many who would volunteer. I am getting such a test sent to me by Imperial college any day now as part of a national survey. I have already done the same test last week. It is simple

An option for those who feel confident to be able to do the test themselves could be rolled out in advance of their vaccination to help reduce the bottle-neck affects and the data could be uploaded to a NHS database. For the 50 age-group and under this would not be challenging in most cases. For those who don't feel confident then they could attend a testing/vaccination centre.

In fact, the existing testing centres could be "upgraded" as it were, to accommodate for these tests for everyone on an appointment basis. These could offer 24/7 appointment options.
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Re: COVID- 19

25 Jan 2021 11:24 am:

3) Refer the the above.

4) The test being used now differentiate by detecting the amount of antibodies detected in the blood sample from my understanding. So; the one I had last week and will be getting any day now had 4 results. Negative, positive indication of likely current viral infection, i.e. clinical stages. So; detection of IgM antibodies indicates a recent exposure to COVID-19, whereas detection of IgG antibodies indicates a later stage of infection. The 4th is an invalid result so re-testing is required.

For those who have had the positive result for Covid-19 previously there is that 5% suggested chance from research that no antibodies show on such a test as I mentioned before. I do think we have to be driven by the 95% who are likely to and who can be assumed to have some natural immunity. Perhaps then the possible 5 % who don't show antibodies although previously Covid-19 + would then proceed to have their vaccination as scheduled and not have to wait; should they wish to have it. Those who were asymptomatic and who never knew they had the virus but also had no antibodies would presumably be treated as if they had never had it as no way of ever knowing.
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Re: COVID- 19

25 Jan 2021 11:46 am:

I took my mother for her vaccination last week and we were in and out within 5 minutes. So quick. So to add a 15 min procedure to that process - would have a significant impact to the capacity of a centre.

Looking at your other answers pretty much solidifies my earlier conclusion - it's a non starter. It's an extra layer of workload and delay on a system that is already in a huge race against time.

To take that on, the benefits would have to outweigh the negatives - and I just don't see it.

People doing it themselves at home - maybe a better shout. Still I see far too many challenges with that.
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Re: COVID- 19

25 Jan 2021 12:22 pm:

Steckers,

I agree it's a significant extra layer; but essentially just one and one that could be seen as just part of the whole vaccination process.

I was suggesting essentially for under 50's too; so no implied or actual slowing down of the phase one programme and with a few months at least to get the whole operation in place. I also think that the second jab should be given to ALL phase one groups before the first jabs are given to the next phase.


Lets consider the risks of pushing ahead with the current vaccination programme and not doing the antibody test.

The BMA and WHO are advocating a maximum of 6 weeks between jabs. Even Phizer are too.

This time would allow the infrastructure to be put in place for the antibody test and then when phase two rolls out the number of people with maximum potential immunity would result in the overall natural/vaccination axis to be achieved for the whole adult population from start to finish in no more time than it would with a 12 week gap between jabs and without the antibody testing. The algorithm is complicated .

What it would do however, is to ensure that maximum immunity is achieved sooner than later for the most vulnerable groups and then subsequently so for the less vulnerable groups in phase two. This significantly reduced the short to medium term pressure on the NHS .

Even if there was a longer time time- scale for the vaccination programme to be rolled-out, any potential risk by delaying the time between jabs would be significantly reduced. A sprinter will not always win the race. Some nations may take longer to complete their programmes ; but may have more actual success in the shorter-term . At the moment the vaccinations numbers are great; but the advise to ignore the recommendations of the WHO, the BMA etc. is very high risk.

We might be seen to be ahead of the game; but still end up sadly losing the race.
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Re: COVID- 19

25 Jan 2021 12:22 pm:

I for one am very concerned of a change of between-jab period being revised too late; and causing a breakdown of the roll-out, and also possible increased deaths from the inter-jab period of 12 weeks within that 3 month window and beyond.

The second jab would need to be extremely effective in some cases on it's own as the first jab may in some cases have lost some if not all of whatever efficacy it may have had .

If the next 6 weeks are used efficiently a antibody testing procedure can be introduced.

It will not mean that the vaccination programme for the whole the adult population has to be lengthened significantly or at all , and by focusing in the next phase on those without immunity will arguably save even more lives by prioritising those without antibodies.

One final point not discussed . The time lag between testing and vaccination would need to be fast and people would need to strictly self-isolate. The benefits of this is that at any one time ( on the assumption of half a million people a day being vaccinated) that most of those people will take every step to ensure they don't become infected before testing and also between testing and being vaccinated.

The other unknown factor in this is what the effects are on those who are asymptomatic who are getting the vaccination.

I think I have read that this research is ongoing. Hopefully; the majority who are an who would test for antibodies would not have to think about that as the decision would be made not to vaccinate. At the moment there is no way of knowing.
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Re: COVID- 19

25 Jan 2021 12:31 pm:

I wonder what time they will announce further travel restrictions ?
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Re: COVID- 19

25 Jan 2021 13:40 pm:

Are any other countries taking this approach RTS? (I mean countries with a comparable population)?
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