COVID- 19

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Re: COVID- 19

12 Nov 2020 19:09 pm:

lovejoy wrote:We may use differing logic to get there but it seems we are all in violent agreement that we are not following the science. That much is clear.


What is the science though? 4 months ago Sage was critical of anyone who mentioned t-cell immunity, now its accepted wisdom. 7 months ago we all thought kids were the main spreaders, turns out they are not.

I have a certain aspect of sympathy for the Government as SAGE hasn't exactly been helpful, they then give interviews to the media telling everyone the government is getting wrong. Sack Whitty, Sack Vallance, Sack Imperial college, Sack Wellcome Trust from SAGE. Iain Duncan Smith accused them of 'Group Think' I'm inclined to agree with him. You need diverse views in order to make a decision, I don't think that is happening on SAGE
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Re: COVID- 19

12 Nov 2020 20:19 pm:

When dealing with a pandemic, I think I’d take the views of the expert medical advisory group over Ian Duncan Smith. He was they guy, lest we forget, who laughed in Parliament over the necessity to endlessly debate the Withdrawal Agreement before 9 months later voting against it because stuff was buried in the small print. I’m unaware of his medical credentials.
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Re: COVID- 19

12 Nov 2020 21:31 pm:

lovejoy wrote:When dealing with a pandemic, I think I’d take the views of the expert medical advisory group over Ian Duncan Smith. He was they guy, lest we forget, who laughed in Parliament over the necessity to endlessly debate the Withdrawal Agreement before 9 months later voting against it because stuff was buried in the small print. I’m unaware of his medical credentials.


Sage was calling for lockdown back in August, it would have been an economic disaster. The issue I have with SAGE is that there does not seem to be a diversity of scientific view points. Instead we've opted for how the Chinese deal with stuff. We could have looked at Japan, Taiwan, Sweden, South Korea etc,. I don't really see much international learning going on from SAGE other than well France & Spain also have it bad. I haven't watched many of the media briefings but watched it today the journalistic questioning is just naff why is Channel 4 not there? Where is the Telegraph and the Mail? The Guardian? Seems like they want to avoid answering the difficult questions because they have a bias that they want to stick to
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Re: COVID- 19

12 Nov 2020 22:06 pm:

SAGE Membership. Only 1 from the Wellcome Trust and 3 from Imp Coll. All seriously outnumbered by the other members:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... sub-groups
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Re: COVID- 19

13 Nov 2020 00:55 am:

The Vic wrote:The science is also not very definitive in that there is no one single unified point of view. SAGE has been a bit of a disaster and seems to have a single view point on the pandemic and is in my view not scientific at all. It seems to have a bias, why on earth we are not disregarding anything from Imperial is beyond me.


Are you a Professor The Vic ?? Are you saying SAGE aren't made up of scientists ?? Are you saying SAGE should all be replaced ?? It seems to me that you are very sure of yourself IF a mere layman. :roll: :roll:
Nothing wrong with free speech or having an opinion - as long as it matches mine !!
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Re: COVID- 19

13 Nov 2020 03:02 am:

The Vic wrote:
lovejoy wrote:When dealing with a pandemic, I think I’d take the views of the expert medical advisory group over Ian Duncan Smith. He was they guy, lest we forget, who laughed in Parliament over the necessity to endlessly debate the Withdrawal Agreement before 9 months later voting against it because stuff was buried in the small print. I’m unaware of his medical credentials.


Sage was calling for lockdown back in August, it would have been an economic disaster. The issue I have with SAGE is that there does not seem to be a diversity of scientific view points. Instead we've opted for how the Chinese deal with stuff. We could have looked at Japan, Taiwan, Sweden, South Korea etc,. I don't really see much international learning going on from SAGE other than well France & Spain also have it bad. I haven't watched many of the media briefings but watched it today the journalistic questioning is just naff why is Channel 4 not there? Where is the Telegraph and the Mail? The Guardian? Seems like they want to avoid answering the difficult questions because they have a bias that they want to stick to

Perhaps look at the information that the alternative SAGE people are saying. Oh and using Sweden as an exemplar. You're probably going to have to rethink that too.
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Re: COVID- 19

13 Nov 2020 08:41 am:

Mute - your constant desire for people to only have your perspective is an embarrassment, you remind me of slightly less intelligent version of Donald Trump.

Russglos - I'd welcome more scientists from Independent Sage and those scientist who are sceptical of lockdowns. The Government needs to hear all arguments and perspective on 'the science' so that they make an informed decisions. You now have 70 Conservative MPs who have formed a group to look at alternatives to the current strategy, I think thats a good thing. Sweden although seeing an uptick in cases is not above its excess deaths. There are other countries we may wish to look at South Korea, Japan. If lockdowns were successful Peru would not be in the mess it is in right now, who had one of the hardest lockdowns and is now being truly ripped apart by not only Covid, its very tragic there.
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Re: COVID- 19

13 Nov 2020 08:52 am:

Independent SAGE: Looks a weaker mix of disciplines to me:

https://www.independentsage.org/who-are ... dent-sage/
aka John Neary
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Re: COVID- 19

13 Nov 2020 12:03 pm:

Sage was calling for lockdown back in August, it would have been an economic disaster. The issue I have with SAGE is that there does not seem to be a diversity of scientific view points. Instead we've opted for how the Chinese deal with stuff. We could have looked at Japan, Taiwan, Sweden, South Korea etc,. I don't really see much international learning going on from SAGE other than well France & Spain also have it bad. I haven't watched many of the media briefings but watched it today the journalistic questioning is just naff why is Channel 4 not there? Where is the Telegraph and the Mail? The Guardian? Seems like they want to avoid answering the difficult questions because they have a bias that they want to stick to[/quote]
But, the Vic, SAGE were calling for a 2 week lockdown rather than the 4 we got, and in the time the government dilly dallied infections shot up and more drastic measures were needed.
I can't see how you think we've opted for the Chinese approach, their's has been far more strict and successful than ours. Our problem is we haven't had a clear strategy since day 1 and we've totally failed to learn from what's happened elsewhere. The government has been clueless, bouncing around like a ball bearing in a pin ball machine with U-turn following U-turn so that despite being one of the richest nations in the world our deaths and economy have been at the top of the least well performing counties. And their failure to secure a Brexit deal looks like it could well slow down the passage of the new vaccine into the country. You couldn't make it up!
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Re: COVID- 19

13 Nov 2020 12:25 pm:

The Vic wrote:Mute - your constant desire for people to only have your perspective is an embarrassment, you remind me of slightly less intelligent version of Donald Trump.

Russglos - I'd welcome more scientists from Independent Sage and those scientist who are sceptical of lockdowns. The Government needs to hear all arguments and perspective on 'the science' so that they make an informed decisions. You now have 70 Conservative MPs who have formed a group to look at alternatives to the current strategy, I think thats a good thing. Sweden although seeing an uptick in cases is not above its excess deaths. There are other countries we may wish to look at South Korea, Japan. If lockdowns were successful Peru would not be in the mess it is in right now, who had one of the hardest lockdowns and is now being truly ripped apart by not only Covid, its very tragic there.


I call your Peru and raise you New Zealand.

I'd prefer to listen to medical experts than a cabal of 70 MPs, but we are perhaps now through the looking glass and in to a "who needs experts" era. Its going swimmingly so far ....
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