England v South Africa

Re: England v South Africa

Not1eyed 14 Jun 2018 10:56 am said..

Don’t get too excited about no Robshaw Beddis. He will still be in RWC squad. No point him being on bench as he’s not an impact player. He starts or not at all for me.
I thought midfield was excellent last week. Would like seen Daly and brown swap positions. Great to see Cipriani on bench
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Re: England v South Africa

kentishglaws 14 Jun 2018 11:01 am said..

I'm impressed with parts of that team. Shields in at 6 will be strong and Wilson will hopefully get a good go off the bench. Daly at 15 gets a chance to make up for last week and prove he can be the long term successor in that position. Cirpriani hopefully will come on at 10 and not get moved around too much.

No second row cover is so stupid when there are 2 locks in the squad, but not in the 23. What is the point in bringing these guys, give Isiekwe the chance to make up for last week. Nothing more needs to be said about Mike Brown, we all know he isn't a winger, despite scoring last week through awful Springbok defence. Try the other guys. Olly Woodburn must be sitting at home scratching his head.
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Re: England v South Africa

Camel 14 Jun 2018 11:04 am said..

Still Realistic wrote:Camel, how will they be more acclimatised this week when their tour base were all training is done is at sea level?

It still seems that EJ is very untrusting of the players that he has taken along basically as injury cover. Jonny Hill is there as a specialist lock isn't he?


I know that. They played 80 minutes in Johannesburg last week though. I would guess that 65 - 75% of that squad has never played at altitude before. This week, at least they'll at least know what to expect from the conditions.

I agree with your overall point that I think you're making though, in that they should've been based and trained at altitude in order to prepare properly.
"Remember that Rugby is team game; all 14 of you make sure that you pass the ball to Jonah"
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Re: England v South Africa

Fat Taff 14 Jun 2018 11:30 am said..

kentishglaws wrote:I'm impressed with parts of that team. Shields in at 6 will be strong and Wilson will hopefully get a good go off the bench. Daly at 15 gets a chance to make up for last week and prove he can be the long term successor in that position. Cirpriani hopefully will come on at 10 and not get moved around too much.

No second row cover is so stupid when there are 2 locks in the squad, but not in the 23. What is the point in bringing these guys, give Isiekwe the chance to make up for last week. Nothing more needs to be said about Mike Brown, we all know he isn't a winger, despite scoring last week through awful Springbok defence. Try the other guys. Olly Woodburn must be sitting at home scratching his head.



I just don't get why he's arsing around with Daly in the back three. Play him at 13, it's his best position.
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Re: England v South Africa

Still Realistic 14 Jun 2018 11:32 am said..

Camel wrote:
Still Realistic wrote:Camel, how will they be more acclimatised this week when their tour base were all training is done is at sea level?

It still seems that EJ is very untrusting of the players that he has taken along basically as injury cover. Jonny Hill is there as a specialist lock isn't he?


I know that. They played 80 minutes in Johannesburg last week though. I would guess that 65 - 75% of that squad has never played at altitude before. This week, at least they'll at least know what to expect from the conditions.

I agree with your overall point that I think you're making though, in that they should've been based and trained at altitude in order to prepare properly.


So you are not believing any of the quotes out of the England camp that the altitude had no effect on the performance last week then??? ;)
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Re: England v South Africa

Camel 14 Jun 2018 11:47 am said..

Still Realistic wrote:
Camel wrote:
Still Realistic wrote:Camel, how will they be more acclimatised this week when their tour base were all training is done is at sea level?

It still seems that EJ is very untrusting of the players that he has taken along basically as injury cover. Jonny Hill is there as a specialist lock isn't he?


I know that. They played 80 minutes in Johannesburg last week though. I would guess that 65 - 75% of that squad has never played at altitude before. This week, at least they'll at least know what to expect from the conditions.

I agree with your overall point that I think you're making though, in that they should've been based and trained at altitude in order to prepare properly.


So you are not believing any of the quotes out of the England camp that the altitude had no effect on the performance last week then??? ;)


:? :?
"Remember that Rugby is team game; all 14 of you make sure that you pass the ball to Jonah"
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Re: England v South Africa

TheOptimistSenior 14 Jun 2018 12:21 pm said..

Camel wrote:
Still Realistic wrote:Camel, how will they be more acclimatised this week when their tour base were all training is done is at sea level?

It still seems that EJ is very untrusting of the players that he has taken along basically as injury cover. Jonny Hill is there as a specialist lock isn't he?


I know that. They played 80 minutes in Johannesburg last week though. I would guess that 65 - 75% of that squad has never played at altitude before. This week, at least they'll at least know what to expect from the conditions.

I agree with your overall point that I think you're making though, in that they should've been based and trained at altitude in order to prepare properly.


The fact that they played at altitude last week is irrelevant if they returned to the training camp near Durban after the game. It will have done nothing for preparation/altitude training.
Johannesberg is1753 metres (5751 feet) above sea level with effective oxygen level of about 17% (sea level is 20.9%). Bloemfontein is 1400m. (4600ft) with oxygen of 17.6% and should be slightly easier, but I would have thought it would have been much better to prepare at altitude for the first two games, and also reap the benefit from altitude training when playing at sea level in the final test. I would be very surprised if the players did not notice the effect of altitude, whatever was said by them and the coaches afterwards.
Agree entirely with regard to the lock situation. It seems a nonsense to have a specialist second row like Jonny Hill (who has been excellent for Exeter this season) and not have him in the 23, even if only on the bench.
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Re: England v South Africa

Beddis 14 Jun 2018 12:29 pm said..

Theotherjonny wrote:No Robson? Not even on the bench?

He may as well go to France at this stage. Youngs was poor again last week as he usually is and gets yet another chance to be outclassed by De Klerk.

Interesting to note that one of the rugby journalists checked to see when was the last time Shields played lock in his Super rugby career, only to find he hadn’t! Inspirational team selections again to put him as bench second row cover :mrgreen:
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Re: England v South Africa

TheOptimistSenior 14 Jun 2018 12:39 pm said..

Faf de Klerk was sure that altitude played a part in their win last week and it seems George agreed (according to quotes on the Sky Sport website). Jones felt that training at altitude would not have conferred significant benefit, so they didn't. His view was that altitude was not the reason England lost.
I wonder if he took advice about potential benefits from someone who knows about altitude training. Somehow, I doubt it.
I've tried to find out where the Springbok training camp was/is - I suspect at altitude, as de Klerk, Vermeulin and Le Roux, all of whom have been playing in UK or France, did not appear to be affected.
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Re: England v South Africa

SwindonGlos 14 Jun 2018 12:53 pm said..

A positive take on it.

Brown is a very good defensive back 3 and is intelligent enough to have learned from his positioning errors last week. He took his try very well.

Shields is an upgrade in the back row and Curry does not deserve to be discarded on the back of one average game.

Hill is an outstanding lock but more in the athlete than bruiser mould and that is where England were particularly out played. Launchbury is both athlete and bruiser.

Ford made some sumptuous passes in the first 20 minutes and whilst he went quiet that had more to do with England's lack of physicality up front than his mistakes.

Youngs was out played by deKlerk but the latter had a blinder and youngs did not himself play badly.

Vunipola has another game of fitness and if he is closer to his best as a result will be more effective for it.

Isekwe needs protecting from another poor performance. He's had a few caps and will get better but not if his confidence is shot.

Wilson is a bruiser and can come on to add ballast.

Cipriani should get a chance and can make a huge difference against a tiring defence.

All of the above can be disputed but EJ is trying different things, giving players experience in a cauldron of a test match
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster and treat those two impostors just the same.
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