England v South Africa

Re: England v South Africa

TP17 07 Jun 2018 14:30 pm said..

I like Slade but Lozowski was definitely the better of the two on the big stage in the premiership final imo.
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Re: England v South Africa

Camel 07 Jun 2018 14:31 pm said..

SonofPricey wrote:I am disappointed for Woodward and Cipriani, don't understand the point of Brown in the squad (let alone the wing) and think the inclusion of Shields is a nonsense. However I still want England to win and win well. Unless you are Welsh or South African anything other than an England win is a good thing.


Why SoP?

He's got English parents, so I can't see there is an issue is on residency grounds.

Having watched him in Super Rugby, he's an outstanding talent who will bring physicality and leadership. He's got great hands, is commanding in the lineout and carries hard. For me, he's an upgrade on Robshaw (who I rate) at blindside.
"Remember that Rugby is team game; all 14 of you make sure that you pass the ball to Jonah"
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Re: England v South Africa

Fat Taff 07 Jun 2018 14:35 pm said..

The two new Bok wings lack experience, but their pace is going to be a proper handful for Brown, whichever he faces. I expect England will be sending plenty of high balls their way, perhaps his aerial ability is the reason behind his selection if that's the plan?
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Re: England v South Africa

Beddis 07 Jun 2018 14:48 pm said..

Camel wrote:
SonofPricey wrote:I am disappointed for Woodward and Cipriani, don't understand the point of Brown in the squad (let alone the wing) and think the inclusion of Shields is a nonsense. However I still want England to win and win well. Unless you are Welsh or South African anything other than an England win is a good thing.


Why SoP?

He's got English parents, so I can't see there is an issue is on residency grounds.

Having watched him in Super Rugby, he's an outstanding talent who will bring physicality and leadership. He's got great hands, is commanding in the lineout and carries hard. For me, he's an upgrade on Robshaw (who I rate) at blindside.

Shields may have English parents, but it has been mentioned several times that he previously regarded himself as a Kiwi until it became obvious he wasn’t going to make the grade there.

Also he hasn’t proven himself in the Premiership yet, he may well do so, but the likes of Gary Graham, Ludlow etc must be pretty peeved to see a NZ reject chosen ahead of them.

What is to say his style of play will work in the English system as well, the other players know each other well and to drop in someone new is plain daft.

As for rating Robshaw, really? Did you see the Barbarians game? Or the Six Nations? The last season for Quins? He was ineffectual nearly every time???
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Re: England v South Africa

Lewi7 07 Jun 2018 15:08 pm said..

Sheilds is clearly eligible under the current qualification rules, however I agree, if he had been part of his AP club & played a few matches first to see how he performed his selection would sit better. But given the RFU rule about overseas players not being eligible his selection is pushing the spirit, if not, rule of the policy.

What say a back row of Shield, Vunipola & Hughes :shock: :o :roll:
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Re: England v South Africa

Mark from Stroud 07 Jun 2018 15:16 pm said..

Agustin Pichot doesn't think much of fast-tracking him ...
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Re: England v South Africa

Camel 07 Jun 2018 15:30 pm said..

Beddis wrote:
Camel wrote:
SonofPricey wrote:I am disappointed for Woodward and Cipriani, don't understand the point of Brown in the squad (let alone the wing) and think the inclusion of Shields is a nonsense. However I still want England to win and win well. Unless you are Welsh or South African anything other than an England win is a good thing.


Why SoP?

He's got English parents, so I can't see there is an issue is on residency grounds.

Having watched him in Super Rugby, he's an outstanding talent who will bring physicality and leadership. He's got great hands, is commanding in the lineout and carries hard. For me, he's an upgrade on Robshaw (who I rate) at blindside.

Shields may have English parents, but it has been mentioned several times that he previously regarded himself as a Kiwi until it became obvious he wasn’t going to make the grade there.

Also he hasn’t proven himself in the Premiership yet, he may well do so, but the likes of Gary Graham, Ludlow etc must be pretty peeved to see a NZ reject chosen ahead of them.

What is to say his style of play will work in the English system as well, the other players know each other well and to drop in someone new is plain daft.

As for rating Robshaw, really? Did you see the Barbarians game? Or the Six Nations? The last season for Quins? He was ineffectual nearly every time???


He may not have proven himself in the prem yet Mark, but he's been class in Super Rugby. There's no reason why that form can't be replicated at International level. He also plays SA opposition frequently; maybe Jones believes that'll give him / us an advantage on the tour?

I agree, the likes of Graham, Ludlow etc should feel aggrieved. Armand (and others) have openly said that Jones critiques them on the areas they need to improve at to be considered at International level. Great players will learn, react and improve from that rejection.

You say to drop someone new in is daft; I disagree. I think it's healthy to have a new face in the mix. New players are frequently brought into sides, why would this be a problem or be any different?

I do rate Robshaw. I agree that he didn't have a good game last weekend, but he's performed consistently well for England in the past 8 or so years. It might be the right time for him to move aside and I think this tour will be pivotal for his International future.
"Remember that Rugby is team game; all 14 of you make sure that you pass the ball to Jonah"
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Re: England v South Africa

SonofPricey 07 Jun 2018 15:32 pm said..

Super Rugby is not the same as the Premiership. Shields must have absolutely stormed it in training and had advanced knowledge of the calls, moves and style of play that EJ wants to play. Or it could be that we want to get him capped asap. Yes he is English qualified, I don't have an issue in selecting him per se, but I wonder if he is that much better than the players who have done it in the AP all season etc.

Hopefully when he gets on he has a great game.
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Re: England v South Africa

Camel 07 Jun 2018 15:58 pm said..

SonofPricey wrote:Super Rugby is not the same as the Premiership. Shields must have absolutely stormed it in training and had advanced knowledge of the calls, moves and style of play that EJ wants to play. Or it could be that we want to get him capped asap. Yes he is English qualified, I don't have an issue in selecting him per se, but I wonder if he is that much better than the players who have done it in the AP all season etc.

Hopefully when he gets on he has a great game.


He's been a top performer in Super Rugby for a number of seasons and he's getting better. Many New Zealanders were calling for him to be called up to the AB's some time ago.

I do sympathise with the AP players (as already mentioned), particularly Armand who's played consistently well for the Chiefs. I would've selected him for SA, allowing Shields time to bed in at Wasps.

Equally, there's only 15 months to the RWC, so if he is going to bring him in, then maybe the sooner the better.
"Remember that Rugby is team game; all 14 of you make sure that you pass the ball to Jonah"
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Re: England v South Africa

Forrester 07 Jun 2018 16:54 pm said..

I don't see a problem with it and EJ should be able to pick who he likes from whoever is qualified. I don't remember many comments when Piers Francis was called up before he'd joined Saints. Shields is quality and I'm pretty sure will have the 6 shirt tied down in no time. The WC is next year and it would be daft to miss the opportunity of integrating him as quickly as possible.
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